Is podcasting genetic? What about entrepreneurship?
To wrap up this amazing year – it’s been a really good one for me and for Marketing Mentor – do you have your Simplest Marketing Plan for 2024 yet? – I’m sharing Episode 16 of Humanizing Success, the podcast of my young nephew, Jake Benun.
He’s trying to figure out what to do with his life so he’s using his podcast to ask the question, "What is success?"
Here's how I answered --
You can also listen here and below.
I love all the experimenting Jake is doing – does that run in a family? Certainly the entrepreneurial spirit does – I can feel it in him. I’m sure this isn’t his first appearance on my podcast. I can’t wait to see where he goes and what he does with his life.
And if you like that one, be sure to watch Episode 1 where he interviews his older sister (my niece) – something definitely runs in this family!
And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.
You can also find Jake on
- YouTuke: https://www.youtube.com/@HumanizingSuccess
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@humanizingsuccesss
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/humanizings...
And here's his podcast Set Up:
- Camera: Iphone 15 set to 4k & 60fps
- Zoom PodTrak P4 Podcast Recorder: https://amzn.to/3rM28m9
- MAONO XLR Podcast Microphone: https://amzn.to/48TrMG1
- OneOdio Wired Over Ear Headphones: https://amzn.to/46whLwR
- Mic Stands: https://amzn.to/3M9FM4L
- Mic Windscreen: https://amzn.to/402jvfa
Read the complete transcript below:
ilise benun
Hi there. This is ilise benun, your Marketing Mentor, and this is the podcast for you, if and only if, you are ready to leave the feast or famine syndrome behind, and I mean for good.
Is podcasting genetic? My young nephew, Jake Benun, recently started a podcast called “Humanizing Success.” He's trying to figure out what to do with his life, so he's using his podcast to interview people he knows about their definition of success and much more. I think that's pretty smart.
When I was in Miami recently, I was hoping he'd invite me to be a guest on his podcast, and he did, so I wouldn't have to suggest myself, which I would have. You know that, right?
So to wrap up this amazing year, it really has been a good one for me and for Marketing Mentor, I hope for you too. Do you have your Simplest Marketing Plan for 2024 yet?
Anyway, I'm sharing episode 16 of “Humanizing Success”. You can also watch the video version on YouTube, and be sure to subscribe, as well. I think it's kind of fun, so listen and learn.
Jake Benun
Hi guys, and welcome back to the “Humanizing Success” podcast. Thank you guys so much for being here, and today we are here once again with James, our newest host here.
James Harden
Hi, Mom.
Jake Benun
And with ilise benun. If you guys have been paying attention, my last name is also Benun. So ilise is my aunt, and we are lucky to have her here today. She's from Savannah, Georgia, and she'll be going back a little bit later, so just caught her in the nick of time. We're lucky to have you, and thanks for being here.
ilise benun
Hi, Mom.
Jake Benun
She will be watching this. So the first thing that I like to get into, straight away, is when you think about success, what does that mean to you?
ilise benun
Freedom.
Jake Benun
That's it?
ilise benun
In a word, yeah. I mean, and what does “freedom” mean, right? Freedom is the opportunity to do exactly what I want, when I want, with whom I want, for as long as I want, until I want to do something else.
James Harden
Did anything drive you to want to achieve that freedom? At one point, did you consider yourself not free?
ilise benun
Uh, yeah. I would say, all growing up, you have to do what your parents think you should do, and sometimes they even want you to be a certain way, and they communicate that to you. And then you leave home, which I did when I was 18, and you are behaving like someone that doesn't really feel like you. And then it takes years and years and years to figure out, "Well then, who the heck am I?" And so that's part of the quest for freedom, I think, as well. But more specifically, I was fired from my second job out of college when I was 27, and that's when I decided I was never working for anyone again.
Jake Benun
What was that job exactly?
ilise benun
I was the operations manager at a safari company. It was a small Kenyan company.
Jake Benun
“Safari” meaning ...?
ilise benun
Kenyan safaris.
Jake Benun
Oh, wow.
ilise benun
Yeah. And I was working in their New York office, and I didn't realize that I wanted to quit, so I just got myself fired.
James Harden
That's one way to do it.
ilise benun
Yeah, I was young.
Jake Benun
But it worked out.
ilise benun
It did work out, because that's when I became self-employed. It's been 35 years.
Jake Benun
Which brings us to, what do you do now?
ilise benun
What do I do? Get clients. Sometimes I say, “I teach creative professionals how to get better clients with bigger budgets.” Which do you prefer?
Jake Benun
I like the second one.
ilise benun
Second one better?
Jake Benun
More of a punch, for sure.
ilise benun
Mm-hmm. And I do it in many different ways. I've written several books. I have my own podcast, as well. I do speaking. In fact, the reason I'm here in Florida is because I was just doing a speaking engagement in West Palm Beach. And I do one-on-one coaching. I have a program called the Simplest Marketing Plan, through which I teach groups how to market themselves using really simple strategies.
Jake Benun
Amazing. And that's a lot of different aspects of the business.
ilise benun
That's right.
Jake Benun
Where did it start?
ilise benun
It started ... so the idea I had when I said to myself, "I'm never working for anyone again. Okay, what am I going to do?"
I had a degree in Spanish. And I didn't really want to do anything ... I didn't know what to do with my Spanish.
And so I lived in New York. I looked around. All my friends were creative: dancers, actors, artists ... and I thought to myself: These people are really disorganized.
I was a little bit more organized. It was 1988, and I thought: I'm going to be a professional organizer, and I'm going to help people with all their piles of papers.
And so I did that. I started telling people that's what I was doing. And little by little, I would sit with people in their piles of papers, and at the bottom of everyone's pile, there was always something that had to do with self-promotion and marketing that they were not doing.
James Harden
So you find that pain point amongst all the mess in their lives, and I'm sure it was kind of easy for you to see from an outside perspective what other people could be doing better, and then allowing them to actually see your value in getting them to that next step of actually marketing.
And was that just marketing themselves as their brand, or did they have products? Who exactly do you focus on? What's your niche?
ilise benun
No. My niche is solopreneurs, for the most part, or small agency owners marketing a creative service. At this point, they're mostly commercial services as opposed to talents. But it started with ... my first client was an actor, and I would just help him put together his resume and photo and send them off to casting agents. We just did mailings together, because that's what he needed help with.
Jake Benun
Wow. So in your work, let's say you get a new client, do you have a process that you've already laid out and you kind of fit it to the person? Or do you start from the beginning and say, "Okay, you're not related at all to my other clients, let's take a whole different path"?
ilise benun
No.
Jake Benun
Okay.
ilise benun
No to the latter. Kind of no to the former also. I mean, I've created this framework, that I call the Simplest Marketing Plan, over the years. I've whittled it down to three tools, and I think three tools are all you need.
And so I adapt those three tools to each client based on their comfort level, based on their preferences, based on where I see their strengths could be, and also based on the markets that they're going after.
Jake Benun
Very interesting.
James Harden
What are these three tools?
ilise benun
Oh, you want to know what the three ... ? Okay, so the three tools are: high-quality content marketing. So creating content. Right? Content, which is pain-point oriented. I like to say that, “high-quality content is content that's about what you know they need as opposed to content about what you do or what you know.”
Jake Benun
Sure.
ilise benun
So for me, high-quality content is ... actually, the most recent blog post from the most recent podcast is all about SEO—search engine optimization. Do creative professionals really need search engine optimization? That's, I know, a question that my clients and prospects are asking themselves. So my content is about what they're asking about marketing.
Jake Benun
Gotcha. I mean, first of all, SEO is a huge thing that's promoted on social media, and there's tons of agencies built solely around helping people with SEO. What is your take on that?
ilise benun
I hate SEO.
Jake Benun
Interesting.
James Harden
Really?
ilise benun
And that's what I said to this woman who does SEO for a living. Cuz I wanted to see how she would respond and whether she would defend it or understand my rationale for why I think it doesn't make sense.
Jake Benun
It's a bold statement.
ilise benun
And the reason I think it doesn't make sense is because my whole framework is based on you choose who you want to work with and go get them. You don't wait for whoever happens to find you, whoever happens to come along. Because for me, actually, search engine optimization, when people find my website on Google, they're really bad prospects. They can't afford me. They stand me up, they don't know what I do.
It's funny, "marketing mentor" has become a keyword search phrase, but when I started my business, it wasn't. So now when people search for a marketing mentor, they're not looking for what I do. They're looking for what someone else does. And actually, most of the people who find me that way are new corporate people who have just been promoted to do marketing and they know nothing about marketing. So they say, "I need a marketing mentor." But I don't know anything about marketing in a corporate environment. I'm all about creative professionals.
James Harden
It sounds like what you're saying is SEO only gets you an influx of very unqualified leads.
ilise benun
For me.
James Harden
For you, exactly.
ilise benun
There are certain situations. I have a client who is a public speaking coach, and she gets all of her best clients and prospects through search engine optimization. So it really just depends on the service you're offering, how people think about looking for it, and then the quality of the prospects you're looking for.
James Harden
And in your experience, which you obviously have given it the ‘old college try’ on that one, it sounds like ... .
ilise benun
No, and I get good SEO. I just don't value the people who find me that way.
James Harden
It's just not something that you feel the need to crank the volume on, because it hasn't actually...
Jake Benun
Produced.
ilise benun
I have a better way to get the clients that I need.
And content marketing includes speaking. So this event that I was just at, right, all of those people are prospects. And having them see me on a stage, commanding the stage and speaking with authority, and saying things that they're like, "Oh yeah, she's right about that," that's a direct connection to people who are going to reach out to me or I'm going to follow up with them and say, "All right, here are the options."
Jake Benun
So I have a couple questions that I want to ask relating to what you just said. But I don't want to miss on two and three.
ilise benun
We won't forget about two and three, I promise.
James Harden
Yeah, she's a public speaker, she's got all of her... She's already bullet pointed down for the next 30 minutes.
Jake Benun
Yeah, I'm glad you'll catch us up on that.
ilise benun
Yes.
Jake Benun
So, in private, you've said that ...
We had dinner last night and you said that you were maybe someone who likes to be more on their own, keep to yourself a little bit. So it shocks me that you found a talent in one, public speaking, but it sounds like with your clients, you have to create some sort of relationship to understand who they're reaching out to, what they would be, I guess, trying to tell people. So how have you found that balance with yourself?
ilise benun
So it's not like I don't like people, Jake. I just really value my alone time. But I also love relating to people, especially around business. And so my one-on-one coaching clients, I really kind of become their business partner, and get to know them and the way they think and what they react to.
Jake Benun
How have you evolved?
ilise benun
No. Definitely not. I remember my first talk that I gave in 1993.
Jake Benun
Wow.
ilise benun
I was really nervous. It was to a conference of graphic designers. I had no slides, and I didn't know that graphic designers need something to look at.
James Harden
Hence the name.
ilise benun
Right. And I don't remember, I'm sure I was not very good, but you're never good at something you're doing for the first time, anyways. So I've gotten better over the years, I think.
James Harden
And how long from when you quit your job at 27 to that first ...
ilise benun
That was five years.
James Harden
That was five years?
ilise benun
Yeah.
James Harden
Okay. And then when did you actually, from the time you fired yourself, say, "You know what? I need to go into helping people market themselves."
ilise benun
It was really quick, actually. There's a little story behind how it happened. I said I was going to be a professional organizer. I said that to myself. I started saying it to other people. Someone I said it to said, "Oh, you should know about the National Association of Professional Organizers."
Jake Benun
Sounds kind of perfect.
ilise benun
So I guess I didn't make it up. All right. And then at an event ...
So I started getting involved in the National Association of Professional Organizers, and that woman who told me that, she was actually writing an article for New York Magazine about things that you could get people to do that you didn't want to do for yourself. And she had a whole section about organizers. And that was in September of 1988.
So I was fired in April. And in September, this little blurb, one paragraph in New York Magazine came out. And it said, I just looked at it a couple weeks ago, it actually said "She helps people market themselves and is kind of like an agent that doesn't take a commission," which is true. And so I realized it only took me about six months, basically, to find that evolution.
Jake Benun
Very quick.
James Harden
And they did it for you, pretty much?
ilise benun
Yeah, basically.
James Harden
That's awesome. Yeah.
Jake Benun
So when you were talking about that, you emphasized that you started to, one, say it to yourself, but then started to speak it to other people. How important do you think, when you're talking about dreams or maybe something you want to pursue, a lot of people maybe get stuck with just keeping it internal.
ilise benun
Keeping it to themselves, yeah.
Jake Benun
So, how did that journey look like for you? And looking back, how important do you think that was?
ilise benun
Well, it wasn't a dream. It was just an idea at that point. I've never actually had a dream about what I wanted to do. I just listen to the market and go where it tells me to go, and then make decisions about how I want to go there, essentially.
Jake Benun
Okay, so you've always been action-oriented?
ilise benun
Yeah, I would say so. I'm a person who if you say, "Can you do this?" I'm going to be like, "Sure, I can do that."
It's funny, because a lot of my clients really struggle with a lack of self-confidence, or an imagined lack of self-confidence, because they don't really understand that confidence doesn't come first. Confidence is a byproduct of doing stuff and making mistakes and failure, if you will. And just learning. Confidence comes from learning, it comes from competence.
And I actually have this other acronym. I say, "You don't need confidence. You need a cat." You want to know what “a cat” stands for?
Courage. Autonomy. And trust.
So courage, not fearlessness, but courage, to do the thing that needs to be done.
Autonomy, which is not independence. It means, basically, I don't need any one. I need every one. I don't need that particular prospect to come through, I don't need that particular project. I'm not dependent on any one. I just need lots of irons in the fire, because I know that something's going to materialize.
Jake Benun
I like that.
ilise benun
And trust, in myself, in the universe, in common sense. Just trusting that I'll figure it out. And you know what? If it doesn't, who cares?
Jake Benun
I like that.
James Harden
We like that.
Jake Benun
We like that.
James Harden
I liked cats already, so now, need more cat. I love it.
ilise benun
You don't need confidence, you need a cat.
James Harden
So where did your confidence come from?
ilise benun
I don't have confidence.
James Harden
Well, you had cat.
ilise benun
I have a cat, I have courage, autonomy, and trust.
James Harden
But you don't think that's built to you to a level of confidence in yourself?
ilise benun
Whatever that is. I have no idea what it is.
Jake Benun
Right, that's the question.
James Harden
Okay, so you're saying you can just throw that out the window altogether and just, as long as you're doing those three things ...
ilise benun
Yeah. Don't worry about confidence.
James Harden
Don't worry about it.
Jake Benun
I like that, because, like you were saying, a lot of people have this sort of illusion about confidence. "Oh, I just don't have that," or something like that. Why do you think so many people have that thought?
ilise benun
I think people, actually, are afraid of success and the responsibility that comes along with success. Because if what I say I want to do, I actually do, and it starts to work, then I'm actually going to have to change. I'm going to have to be different—and who knows where that's going to take me. And a lot of people are really afraid of not knowing where they're going. But I love that.
James Harden
Do you see self-sabotage?
ilise benun
Yeah.
James Harden
Occur when that ...
ilise benun
Oh my God, totally.
James Harden
When they realize that they're going to have to change?
ilise benun
All the time ...
James Harden
What does that look like? What does a self-sabotage client look like to you?
ilise benun
Well, let's take that back to the second tool.
James Harden
Perfect.
Jake Benun
That's amazing.
ilise benun
The second tool is networking, strategic networking.
So we had high quality content marketing. That means you create content, but that's not enough. You have to go find your people, in real time, ideally, and in person, if possible.
And a lot of people are very nervous, introverted, reserved, and don't like networking. Don't like talking to strangers because they don't know what to say. It can be scary.
And so the self-sabotage is they just don't go. They procrastinate. They buy a ticket to something and then don't go. Or they go late. Or they leave early. Or they sit in the corner. There are all different ways we cannot do the simple thing that will really bring you into contact with your prospects and maybe lead you to success.
Jake Benun
Yeah. I mean, I've done that before.
ilise benun
We all have.
Jake Benun
The way we met, actually, and we've talked about it previously, is both of us, at that point, I guess, decided to go against that. And I was here; I just moved here. I thought I would be interested in real estate investing; hHe is a realtor and has gone to a couple of those before. But in those things, you're either going to sit in the corner and eat the free food that's there, or you're going to start to speak to people and schmooze and network and things like that—which I had never been to an event like that.
James Harden
While eating the free food.
Jake Benun
While eating the free food. You can't forget about that.
But yeah, so in that story, I put on my name tag, "I'm new."
ilise benun
Smart.
Jake Benun
I think that was it.
James Harden
Yeah, it was like, "I'm Jake Benun. And I'm new."
Jake Benun
So I had a lot of people come up to me, including this guy. So it sort of forced me, even though I wasn't going to go up to people, it brought people in to me. So maybe I had a fear and just tried to overcome it by that.
ilise benun
And it worked.
James Harden
Yeah, that's the C, man—courage. There was a definition I heard of courage recently, and that was kind of what you were talking about. It's not the absence of fearlessness; it's acting even though you are afraid.
And I like that, because now I know when I'm afraid to make cold calls, I hate it, I'd rather be waterboarded. 100%. But I'm like: Okay, it's good that I'm afraid of this. Now I'm going to make myself even more uncomfortable and keep doing it.
ilise benun
And that is actually the third tool, but I don't call it that. I call it “Targeted Outreach.”
So again, you're choosing who you want to work with, who your best prospects are. You've done your research, you looked them up on LinkedIn, you've gone to their website. You know exactly how you can help them. They just don't know you exist yet. And so you reach out to them, not just once, several times, to say, "I love what you're doing. I'd love to work with you. Here's how I think I can help you. And if you're too busy right now, don't worry, because I'm not going anywhere."
Jake Benun
So follow up in that case.
ilise benun
Follow up, yeah.
James Harden
Yeah. And it sounds like you kind of have the right idea of this, because I mean, this whole renaissance of salesmanship has been going pretty hard recently. And I think people have gotten away from the actual definition of what a salesperson should be doing. And it's not so much trying to sell them on what you're trying to do so you can help yourself. It's like, you really love what you do and you see the value in it, and you can love your client almost enough to where you're like, "Look, I would feel bad if you didn't take my service right now because I can actually really help you, and I think that we could work well together," rather than just me trying to go and shove a product or a service down somebody's throat. So I think you're the right kind of person for that.
ilise benun
I talk about it as, “marketing with generosity,” because you're, literally, generously bringing what you have to offer to the people who could probably use it.
And then it's just about timing. Are they ready? Can they even focus on it right now? Can they listen to you talk about it? Are they ready to make this decision? And they're usually not. So then you have to be patient, and wait, and follow up, and stay in touch with your content, basically.
Jake Benun
How much of your clientele now, after doing it for a couple of years, how much of that is long-term clientele, and how much of it is friends of friends who you've worked with before and, I guess, word of mouth has spread about maybe your services?
ilise benun
I'm not going to answer your question. I'm going to answer a slightly different question.
Jake Benun
Please do.
James Harden
You should be in politics, too.
ilise benun
I mean, my clients are ... A lot of them are long-term, so people I work with year after year, and then we just go deeper and deeper and deeper with their business.
James Harden
Amazing.
ilise benun
But there are also people who buy the Simplest Marketing Plan and say, "Oh, this looks good. I get it. I can do it." And then they go off and do it. Those are self-starters.
And then there are people in the middle who kind of need accountability and they need a group of people around them to be doing it with, and so I provide that space through my program. And so I kind of guide that program, but don't get to know those people quite as well. And then some people will stay for a year, some people will stay for longer. And it's really just, there's a lot of come and go.
Jake Benun
So you have something for each person who needs a little more attention or doesn't need more attention.
ilise benun
Right.
Jake Benun
Amazing. And this whole podcast ... there's been kind of a podcast craze. A lot of people starting podcasts and things like that. It sounds like you started yours in a time when, one, there wasn't the same technology or maybe things to help you start that.
How did you continue or not get discouraged, maybe by ... I don't know. You've told me that you don't really keep track of your metrics or things like that, so maybe you were doing it, and you can tell me just for the love of it.
ilise benun
I do it because I learn a lot.
Jake Benun
Okay. I agree.
ilise benun
A podcast is actually the nexus of the three tools, if you think about it. Because with outreach, you can reach out to someone and say, "Do you want to be on my show?" Who would say “no” to that?
James Harden
Sure.
Jake Benun
Yeah, and then you're giving them publicity.
ilise benun
Right, you give them publicity. You create it, and it's content, and it's an amazing opportunity to network with someone.
So I can invite people on my podcast who I want to learn about, and I can reach out to them, I can create content with it. And the other thing is, just about being discouraged, I don't know. I don't get discouraged. I don't know why. That's not part of my vocabulary.
James Harden
Amazing.
ilise benun
I think because I'm not focused on the result. I'm not focused on the external.
I do it because I love it. I learn a lot. I'm trying to be better every single time. And also, I'm very disciplined—I learned that from my parents, actually, and not from my mother, actually; from my father. Hi Mom. [Laughter.] She knows.
And once I commit to doing something, I just do it. I don't not do it.
James Harden
Amazing.
ilise benun
And I think that's really important from a marketing point of view too, because there's so many people out there who say they're going to do something and then forget they said it, or don't do it and hope the other person forgets they said it.
James Harden
A hundred percent.
ilise benun
But I try to think before I talk. And I don't say something I'm going to do if I don't have the intention, or know I will have the space and the opportunity to do it.
Jake Benun
I mean, in business, in general, I think that's such an important thing. And especially when you're going to go around marketing yourself as something, when you can't back that up or don't follow through, trust is a huge thing.
ilise benun
I also want to say ... I mean, part of that is I say I'm going to do things. I may not do them perfectly. I don't actually like perfection. I like mistakes. It keeps it human. It keeps it real. And now with AI and all of these bots, people are imagining they have to be perfect. And I think the only way to distinguish ourselves from the bots is to not be perfect. One way, not the other way.
Jake Benun
I like that. I wanted to talk about the next level. A lot of people are always focused on how can I grow, improve, get to that next level, whatever that means in their head.
Do you feel any of that, or what did that look like for you?
ilise benun
I guess I would start by saying I don't think of it as “levels.” It's just a continuous flow, for me, and evolution.
And I think a lot about growth, because I always want to go to the next place, or do the next thing, or do something I haven't done before. And actually, that requires focus.
And part of the problem, I think, for a lot of people, is there are a lot of different things they want to do and they can't decide which one to do. So in order to grow, I really do think you need to focus and then do whatever's next later, or next. Because we don't know how much time we have, but hopefully we have, you certainly, y'all have some time left.
Jake Benun
I hope so.
ilise benun
So don't be in a hurry to do everything. Just choose one thing to do well. So that's what I'm doing. And right now, the thing I'm focused on is my Simplest Marketing Plan framework and the program that goes with it.
So, my one-on-one coaching, I'm backing off that a little bit so that I can devote more time to growing the groups.
Jake Benun
Gotcha. So you kind of cater ...
A lot of the things we've talked about previously are balance, and so obviously there's no ...
Some people, when they think about balance, it's like, "Okay. Equal percentages of everything I'm focused on." But for different aspects of your life or different points of your life, you've been more focused on different things.
ilise benun
Projects, let's say.
Jake Benun
Exactly. I think that's really important, because like you said, it's almost impossible to do everything at once.
ilise benun
Or do it well.
Jake Benun
Yes.
James Harden
Projects are your passion. Right?
ilise benun
Well, I don't really like that word.
James Harden
Okay, I'm curious.
ilise benun
Well, “passion” is a little too emotional. I like to stay neutral and not get too excited about anything, because that conserves my energy. And that way, I have more energy and better energy for the things that really require it. And I'm making a distinction between enthusiasm and passion, right? I'm enthusiastic about what I do. I'm enthusiastic talking about it. But I wouldn't say I'm passionate about anything.
James Harden
Wow. No, that's fair. I like that, actually. I really love that distinction.
Jake Benun
Yeah.
James Harden
What are you ... Actually, no. Go.
ilise benun
Let me just give a shout-out to my friend, Terri Trespicio, who wrote a book called “Unfollow Your Passion,” which is along the lines of what I'm talking about, also.
James Harden
That makes sense.
Jake Benun
I think that's obviously a very controversial topic, especially at the moment. I feel like everyone's like, or a lot of the advice out there is, "Find what you love."
And there's almost this idea, or at least in my head, that when you find that thing, it's always going to be exciting, and it's always going to be this amazing thing.
ilise benun
Forever and ever and ever.
Jake Benun
Right. But like you were talking about, I don't think we have the capacity for that.
ilise benun
And it doesn't work that way. It really doesn't.
James Harden
I mean, being enthusiastic about what you do is one thing, and then you're saying that you should conserve your passion for ...
ilise benun
Conserve my energy.
James Harden
Your energy, for what?
ilise benun
To implement, to think clearly, to ... I don't know. I find that when people are too excited, they're just all over the place, and that's a dispersion of energy. It's a waste of energy. And if I conserve it, then it's more focused and more effective, I find.
Jake Benun
Is this something that you've sat down and thought about for a long time? Or you just have done that naturally?
ilise benun
No, I've learned over the years, through my own teachers, through my own process, through working with clients like, "Oh, this works. That doesn't work. I'm not doing that anymore. That doesn't work."
James Harden
And then how long until you decide it's not going to work? I guess a better way to ask that question would be: how much have you tried something before you totally throw it to the curb?
ilise benun
It depends, right? If it's a big project, I will give it time, especially if it's something I believe in and really know the market needs, it's just that the market doesn't know it yet. I will definitely give that time and then experiment with all different ways, like "Maybe I should say it this way? Maybe I should approach it this way. Maybe I have to start with this." There's a lot of experimentation that happens with how to implement it. But I don't throw a big idea away without giving it enough of a chance. And I do see a lot of people doing that, actually. "Oh, that didn't work. They never called me back."
Jake Benun
One week later.
ilise benun
Yeah, exactly. No, I will give it time. And I mean, even the Simplest Marketing Plan, it took me, I don't know, five years to figure out the best 14 pages of the document. For the first four years, it was different things. And then it was like, "Okay, no, this is what it needs to be, now. Now I know."
Jake Benun
Did you put that out and then change things and put it out again?
ilise benun
Yeah.
Jake Benun
Oh, okay.
ilise benun
No, every year I do a new one.
Jake Benun
Oh, okay. Very interesting. What would you say is your favorite thing about your current profession?
ilise benun
I really think it is the freedom that I have to do what I want to do and work with the people that I want to work with. And what that really means is saying “no” to the people I don't want to work with, or doing the things I don't want to do. Right? To me, that's the best part of freedom—is what you don't have to do; not what I do get to do.
Jake Benun
Did you learn that by saying “yes” to the wrong person, or maybe people?
ilise benun
Oh yeah, definitely.
Jake Benun
Before you started the business, or even after?
ilise benun
No, after. All the time, right? There's always something. I'm just thinking at the moment of people who are just talkers. Talker, talker, talkers. Right? And then there's no space for me. And so I can't help someone who won't stop talking.
Jake Benun
Obviously you're talking about, maybe, some clients that you've had that turns out maybe this wasn't the best fit. Do you find it difficult to say “no” to them, or even once you've started?
ilise benun
Mm-mm.
Jake Benun
No?
ilise benun
Mm-mm. Sorry.
James Harden
No, you're embarrassing me now.
ilise benun
"Sorry, this isn't working."
I mean, on the opposite side, there are people who expect me to do all the talking. Right? "You're the expert. Tell me what to do."
"All right, well, I'm going to have to know a little bit about you first, so you talk to me." And some people don't want to do that, so, sorry, that's not going to work.
James Harden
Yeah, I can relate to that. When you were talking about things that you don't want to do, necessarily, is there any room for you to delegate tasks like that, because from my understanding, it seems like you're kind of a one-man man here.
ilise benun
I'm not, actually. I have a team.
Jake Benun
Amazing.
ilise benun
Yeah, it is. I have a writer who does a lot of my writing, actually, and writes in my voice, essentially.
I have a sound guy who does my podcast.
Jake Benun
Amazing.
ilise benun
Yeah, so I just record it and then I send it over to him.
Jake Benun
On the premise?
ilise benun
No, no. Everyone's virtual.
Jake Benun
Okay, gotcha.
ilise benun
Yeah, everyone's remote.
And then I have a digital marketer. Hi, Tomas. He's going to watch because he watches everything.
James Harden
Okay, perfect.
Jake Benun
Hey, Tomas.
ilise benun
He's in Sweden.
James Harden
Very cool.
ilise benun
And he's in charge of strategizing all of my campaigns to sell the Simplest Marketing Plan.
Jake Benun
How long did it take you to start expand to different, or delegate, I guess?
ilise benun
It's really just very recent, in the last year or two.
Jake Benun
What prompted that, if it was more recent?
ilise benun
Yeah. I know there was something that happened. I can't remember what it was actually, but something shifted. I was like, "No, I think I need to do this differently now."
Jake Benun
Makes sense.
ilise benun
Yeah, and it was a gradual evolution. I don't think there was any one thing that happened. I just thought, "No, this is the direction. So I need help."
And actually, you know what it was? I think it was Tomas. I mean, I've known him for many years, but I started to realize he could really help me a lot more. And when you find someone really good, you don't want to let them go. You have to find work for them. It was basically his presence, I think, that made me say, "All right, let's move in this direction, and you do everything."
James Harden
And do you have plans for the future to have that kind of be the direction of your role in the company, where you can remove yourself and still have this be a fully functional ...
ilise benun
I don't imagine removing myself.
James Harden
No, completely. I mean, obviously you still would do your public speaking events and your networking, but when it comes to working one-on-one with clients, you mentioned wanting to back off.
ilise benun
No, I love the one-on-one work. I just don't want to do as much of it. I want to be pickier about who I do it with. But really, what I want to do, the thing I value most of my work, is the deepening of the ideas. And I want to spend my time thinking about, "Well, what is getting in the way for people? Why aren't they doing their outreach? What can I do? Or how can I say it differently that will make them say, “Oh, of course I'm going to do it'?" Or "What kind of space can I create?"
So I feel like that's my job, is to just keep deepening the ideas, not necessarily coming up with new ideas, but better ideas. And then he can be responsible for getting them out there.
James Harden
Yeah. So you found your wheelhouse and now you've built a team around you to where you can focus exclusively on what you're best at and what you're more enthusiastic about.
ilise benun
Yes. For now, and then that could change.
Jake Benun
Have you found it, or I guess, are you someone who feels they need to be in control of more things or have you found it easy to delegate, I guess, is the question?
James Harden
Good question.
ilise benun
Are you asking if I'm a control freak?
James Harden
Yes. That's how I would've worded it.
ilise benun
I heard that. I would say, I have been a control freak, and that's partially why it was just me for so long. But I've changed.
Jake Benun
As we do.
ilise benun
Yes. And grown, and I've gotten, I don't know, just much looser and ... and so I will often say, "Okay, yeah, go ahead. That's fine. Whatever you think is fine."
I mean, if I have an opinion, I'll say, "No, we're doing it this way." And I always have the last say, but I let them do ... I mean, I've hired them because they are smart and I like the way they think. So I want them to do their best work.
James Harden
That was actually a quote by Steve Jobs, I think.
Jake Benun
Really?
James Harden
He said, “We don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. We hired them so that they could tell us what to do.”
ilise benun
Yeah.
Jake Benun
Makes sense. So you've been talking a lot about maybe some self-reflecting that you do or thinking about different things in a deep way. Do you do any journaling?
ilise benun
I started when I was 14, and I did stop when I was probably 50 ... what was that, 65? No, that wouldn't make sense. I'm not 65.
James Harden
That's a big journal.
ilise benun
Yeah. No, I stopped at least 10 years ago.
Jake Benun
Okay.
ilise benun
Because I ...
Jake Benun
Was that a conscious decision?
ilise benun
Yeah, I just felt like I don't need to write anything down anymore. It all comes internal.
James Harden
You don't want to get that out? Well, you are an author.
ilise benun
Right. And it's not like the ideas don't come out. They just don't need to be in that raw form.
James Harden
They're more condensed.
ilise benun
Yeah.
James Harden
And publishable, right?
ilise benun
Yeah. I mean, I actually don't find writing to be the best medium for me anymore to figure out what I think. I like to talk, and that's why I love the podcast. And that's why I don't stop doing the podcast, because I learn a lot about what I'm thinking. And I'm best when I'm riffing off of or responding to other people.
James Harden
Absolutely.
ilise benun
So when I say something, and then I actually have a writer who works with me who will just take a transcription and then a video and then my notes and put it all together into an article. Do you think AI could do that?
Jake Benun
I don't think it's far off if it can't, but ... Yeah, I don't know.
ilise benun
I don't know either. But I have this one really good person who I give all that material to, and I say, "Just make something out of that knowing what you know about how I think."
Jake Benun
So I think that's the difference with AI. I think if I were to give something to AI, it would come back and I would have to still then go in and make changes. But if I were to give it to a person, I almost feel like I could just let it go, and however it comes out, it's going to be unique in their way, versus AI is going to come back and almost give me a robotic ... and maybe that'll change.
ilise benun
Maybe.
Jake Benun
But ...
ilise benun
We don't know.
Jake Benun
I do value the ...
James Harden
I think that'd be one of the interactions it has had with you.
ilise benun
Right.
Jake Benun
Maybe, yeah.
James Harden
I don't know very much about AI, but I imagine it learns more through continued interactions.
Jake Benun
Supposedly, yeah.
James Harden
To learn how you actually operate and think. And I think, I don't know, maybe if you spend enough time with ... just like a person, if we spend enough time together, I would probably be a good option to where you could send me all your stuff and then I could turn it into something based on how you think. But it would always have my bias on there, whereas to an AI could probably do the same thing, but it would only have your ...
Jake Benun
True. And we briefly talked about this last night, we could have a whole different conversation about it, but at that point it's like, "Am I really just telling AI or am I telling the whole ..."
ilise benun
Who else will hear?
Jake Benun
Right, the whole internet about that.
I want to ask you, as sort of a final question...
ilise benun
All right.
Jake Benun
So far, throughout your career, your lifetime, what are you most proud of?
ilise benun
Hmm. I would say just the growth of myself from where I came from, because I was a scared little girl for a long time. And over the years, I've been able to let go of that, and I think that is the best part of my life, actually.
Jake Benun
Become “the cat.”
ilise benun
Become the cat, exactly. Become who I am, to be constantly figuring out and inventing myself differently. It's a never-ending process.
Jake Benun
It's funny, because the majority of the answers that I've gotten to that question is "The growth that I've been able to achieve and the person that I've become today," which makes sense.
I feel like at the end of the day, these, maybe, material things that you've grown, this business, this medal you won, they don't matter so much in the end. It's more the person you are and the people you can touch. Not physically.
James Harden
And physically. [Laughter]
Jake Benun
But that's it, almost. Except for the word association. I wrote some things down, but if you ... he likes to riff off of it, right?
James Harden
Yes.
ilise benun
Okay.
Jake Benun
I don't know if that's true, but I like to hear what he has to say off the top of his mind, because it's usually fairly interesting. You understand how it works?
ilise benun
I do.
Jake Benun
Okay, perfect. So I'm just going to say the word and you go for it.
ilise benun
All right.
Jake Benun
Podcast.
ilise benun
Sound.
Jake Benun
Books.
ilise benun
Reading.
James Harden
Banana.
Jake Benun
There we go.
ilise benun
Squishy.
Jake Benun
Marketing.
ilise benun
Mentor.
James Harden
Obstacles.
ilise benun
Mm ... Self-imposed.
Jake Benun
I like that. Travel.
ilise benun
Anywhere.
Jake Benun
And, success.
ilise benun
Freedom.
Jake Benun
Amazing.
ilise benun
Yes.
Jake Benun
Thank you so much.
ilise benun
Thank you, Jake.
Jake Benun
And I'm sure there is plenty more to be talked about, to be spoken about, and maybe I'll come and visit and we'll do something else.
ilise benun
That would be lovely.
Jake Benun
Incredible.
James Harden
Does she want to tell us or the audience where we could find her podcast?
ilise benun
Yeah.
Jake Benun
Absolutely.
ilise benun
All right, well, the hub of everything I have is on marketing-mentor.com. So the podcast is there, the books are there. My Quick Tips are there, the Simplest Marketing Plan is there.
James Harden
One place to find it.
Jake Benun
Incredible. So we'll have that in the links below, and any other information that you tell me we should have, we'll have down there. But thank you so much for being here, and thank you guys for watching. And if you wouldn't mind, we would love if you could hit that, “Subscribe”, that “Like” button. And if you're hearing it on her channel, give it a “Follow” as well. And yeah, we appreciate you guys being here. Thanks James.
ilise benun
Bye, Mom.
Isn't he adorable? I love all the experimenting he's doing. Does that run in a family? Certainly the entrepreneurial spirit does. I can feel it in him. I'm sure this isn't his first appearance on my podcast, and I can't wait to see where he goes and what he does with his life.
And if you like that one, be sure to watch Episode One where he interviews his older sister. Something definitely runs in this family.
Anyway, thanks so much for listening in 2023, and longer, if you have been.
You know, what we let into our minds, and what we keep out, can have a very powerful impact whether we know it or not. And I really appreciate the fact that you make space for my voice. In fact, recently someone wrote this:
"It's not often I allow someone else's voice inside my head, but somehow ilise permeated my thick skull and seems to have nestled right inside my brain, becoming my own inner voice. And now, I literally hear her talking in my ear. When doubt begins to creep in or I start to think about a potentially negative outcome or how others might perceive me, then I hear it: ‘Who cares?' With a shrug of the shoulders, a gentle invitation to fail or succeed or have nothing happen at all. ‘What's the worst that could happen?’"
I just love that, and I have been saying "Who cares?" a lot lately. But this is what makes this all worthwhile. So thank you.
Do you want to build a thriving business on your own terms? It really is possible, and I am speaking from personal experience. The first step is to sign up for my Quick Tips at marketing-mentortips.com. Once you're on the site, you'll find lots more resources, including my brand new for 2024 Simplest Marketing Plan, and the all-new Simplest Marketing Program. It's got built-in accountability, and it's designed to help you build a business you can depend on, and all it takes is 30 minutes a day. It really isn't all that hard. So take a look, and I'll see you next year. Happy New Year, y'all.