For Episode 523 of the Marketing Mentor Podcast, I brought back one of my favorite guests, LinkedIn trainer, Beth Granger, so I could pepper her with questions about LinkedIn, the new and exciting things, as well as the frustrating and annoying things. 

I’m publishing this right away because, knowing LinkedIn, some of it could already be obsolete by the time we go live! Hopefully not. 

I do hope you will let this episode inspire you to take action – just one tiny action – on LinkedIn. That’s your baby step. Go over to LinkedIn and do something!

Connect with me if we're not already connected. (With or without a note -- don't waste one on me!)

Make a thoughtful comment on someone else’s post or just jump into a conversation – that’s where the magic is.

But first, listen here (and below)

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Read the full transcript here

ilise benun:
Hi there. This is Ilise Benun, your Marketing Mentor, and this is the podcast for you if and only if you are ready to leave the feast or famine syndrome behind, and I mean for good.

You are in for a real treat this week because in this episode of the Marketing Mentor podcast, you'll get to eavesdrop on a session from one of my small coaching groups where I hosted LinkedIn trainer Beth Granger as our monthly guest expert. We peppered Beth with questions about LinkedIn, the new and exciting things, as well as the frustrating and annoying things. And I'm publishing this right away because knowing LinkedIn, some of it could already be obsolete by the time we go live. So hopefully not, but listen and learn.
All right. Welcome, Beth, back to the podcast and please introduce yourself.

Beth Granger:
I'm Beth Granger, trainer, consultant, and speaker. I work with organizations and individuals who want to go from confused to confident when networking, building their brand online, in person, and on LinkedIn.

ilise benun:
Okay. And I've invited you here more than once because one of your specialties, in my opinion, I'm curious how you think about it, is LinkedIn and how to use LinkedIn. So tell us a little bit more about what you do as it relates to LinkedIn.

Beth Granger:
Yeah. It depends on the person or organization I'm working with. Sometimes it's as simple as, "Hey, I need a profile and a business page. What should that be like? What are all the features that LinkedIn has?" And then sometimes it moves into behavior, "So how do I connect with people? How do I network on the platform? What content do I share? What do I not do that could damage my reputation?" When it's with organizations, sometimes it moves into helping the marketing people develop content that the salespeople can use or having an employee advocacy program, and sometimes it's just a speaking gig at an event.

ilise benun:
Excellent. And just briefly tell us how long you've been in business and how your business has evolved to this point because I think you used to be a designer, if I remember correctly, right?

Beth Granger:
Well, I started my career as a graphic designer, much to the annoyance of my painting teacher who told me I was prostituting my art talent. Yeah, so my business is, I think next month will be 15 years. Yes, I started as a graphic designer, art director, creative director, et cetera, and I worked for a very long time for a global manufacturing company and kept adding things on, corporate identity program, the website, things like that. And I started my business without a business plan, so it was very much like freelancing, doing all sorts of things related to my previous history. And one of my clients said, "Our sales team's coming in next month. Can you teach them how to use LinkedIn?" And somehow, all these years later, here I am.

ilise benun:
And I call that listening to the market, right? That you didn't go out there and say, "I'm going to teach the world how to use LinkedIn," someone clearly thought you could and asked you to do something and you said yes. Was there any insecurity there, like, "Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. I don't know if I can do that," or, "I don't know enough about that"?

Beth Granger:
No, because a couple of things. I feel like a detective when it comes to social media and platforms. In between leaving the job that I had and starting my business, I got heavily involved in social media. Twitter was my first social media love. Sorry, LinkedIn. And I always had an aspect of training or teaching in the things that I did. For instance, when I led a corporate identity program, I had to teach the designers what the things were. I had to teach outside resources. I don't know. Yeah, surprisingly, no.

ilise benun:
And you just followed that need, it sounds like?

Beth Granger:
Yes, yes.

ilise benun:
Awesome. So let's talk about LinkedIn because here we are in March of 2025 and I think it was probably a year ago that you and I talked about LinkedIn and I have a feeling everything has changed since then. And I want to talk first about Premium, the premium subscription to LinkedIn, versus the free version versus Sales Navigator. If you could, just start by defining each of those and the pros and cons briefly of them from your point of view.

Beth Granger:
Sure. So the main difference between Premium and Sales Navigator is that Premium gives you additional features on the LinkedIn platform that you already know and use. Sales Navigator is more like a separate application that sits on top of LinkedIn and has some very powerful features if there are things that you need or want. Premium does things like shows you 90 days' worth of who viewed your profile. It gives you... And they're trying, it seems like they're trying to add features that are Premium-only features to make it more attractive to people. They recently added, I don't know if any of you have seen the, I don't know what to call it, cycling through sliding background graphic. So that's a Premium feature.

ilise benun:
You mean the header on one's profile?

Beth Granger:
Yes.

ilise benun:
Interesting.

Beth Granger:
So I can show it to you later, but if you look at mine, it's like a slideshow. You'll see a graphic, and then if you wait a couple of seconds, it goes to the next graphic. Yeah, it's a feature.

ilise benun:
No, I didn't even, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Beth Granger:
Yeah. And I would love to use it to tell a story, but since you can't assume somebody's going to sit around to watch it, I still say put the most important thing first. Things like access to LinkedIn Learning, but fan of libraries, many libraries you can get access to LinkedIn Learning through the library for free.

ilise benun:
The public library?

Beth Granger:
Yes, yes. And Sales Navigator, the things it has that some people really like are a much more in-depth and specific search. So for instance, if the number of people in an organization is important to you when searching for someone, you can do that in Sales Navigator. And it has some, I'll call it, CRM-light features where you can make lists and put notes and things like that. But for both of them, I think of it like a gym membership. If you use it, it can be worth it. If you're not hitting roadblocks or things that you want to do that the paid versions allow you to do on the free version, then you don't need to.

ilise benun:
And what about the difference now between free and Premium? Because as you said, they do seem to be adding more and more features that are only available on Premium. And I'm curious what you think about, at what point does it become a no-brainer to get the Premium?

Beth Granger:
Each person will find that for themself, I think, because if you don't need those features or don't... The slideshow, is it worth paying whatever it is per month for the slideshow? Probably not. But when you add all the things together... At first, I thought, "Well, 90 days of who viewed your profile," but I have strategies that have gotten me and my clients, clients for them, by noticing and responding to people who viewed your profile. So if you just look because you're curious and don't act on it, it's not worth it.

ilise benun:
And so what are some of those features and maybe your favorite features that Premium now offers that you think are worth the money besides that one?

Beth Granger:
Well, I do... That one is my favorite quite honestly. I don't know how many people have the services page or services feature on their profile. It's interesting because I actually spoke to their product managers for that feature, and I like the idea better than the implementation because you can get people who are looking for some service that you provide, but the things that frustrate me are the broad nature of those services, that you can't be more specific, and also that you can't limit it by geography. So I'm not sure if it's really worth... I know people who have gotten clients through it and I've had conversations, but never a client through it.

ilise benun:
There's one other one, actually, which I want to come back to, but before I forget, you said for knowing who viewed your profile, if you have strategies, to do something with that information. Can you share a favorite strategy or two?

Beth Granger:
Yes. All right. So when I realized how valuable this information was, a guy named Manny, who I had a first connection, so somebody I knew, looked at my profile. I hadn't talked to him in ages, so there was a reason that he looked at my profile. I didn't know what that was. And very deliberately what I said was on purpose because people know that you can tell they looked, but you don't want to be creepy and say, "Why'd you look at my profile?" So I just said something like, "Noticed you stopped by my profile. How are you?" Left it very open because it could have been nothing, could have been looking to see how to spell my name, could have been reading something on my profile. But he picked up the phone and called me and said, "Susan, a common connection, said you're the person to talk to about LinkedIn," and that led to a client.
If I hadn't noticed that and reached out, what if he got too busy and never called me? What if Susan gave him three names? She didn't, but what if she had and he called someone else first? But leaving, I think the wording is important, to leave it open. They might say, "Oh I don't know. I must've just clicked on something," but it allows you to stay in touch with people.

ilise benun:
And so essentially following up in an open, friendly way is what you're saying?

Beth Granger:
Yes, yes.

ilise benun:
With a question.

Beth Granger:
And then for a second connection, a similar thing. You can look at them, and again, there's a reason. You don't know what it is. Often you can tell that they're trying to sell you something or whatever it might be, but occasionally somebody looked at your profile and you think they'd be a great referral partner or a great prospect or just something sparks something in your head that says, "Hmm." You can send them a connection invite, or if they have their messages open, send them a message, saying something similar, "Noticed you stopped by my profile. So curious how you found me and what made you look? Shall we connect?"

ilise benun:
I love that. And you mentioned, this is a good segue to inviting people to connect because one of the differences between Premium and free is that they limit how many people you can use a personalized note to invite to connect. Talk about that.

Beth Granger:
Yeah, people are frustrated by that, I have to admit, because I think they've reduced it to five a month now. You can only send five messages. But if you're truly connecting with people in order to have conversations and get to know people, five might be a good amount. I mean, if you're trying to connect with a hundred people, are you going to have a hundred conversations in a month? No. So you have to have balance it, and there are other ways to start conversations with people if they're active.

ilise benun:
Pray tell, pray tell.

Beth Granger:
Well, commenting on their content, and then this is sneaky, don't tell anybody, what if you comment on their content, something you would actually say, and then express your curiosity, ask them a question to get a clarification or whatever, a real question that you have because then what are they going to do? They are going to respond and you've started conversation.

ilise benun:
And is there anything in the algorithm, I do want to talk a little bit about the algorithm, that tells LinkedIn that you have a conversation going with this person and makes it easier for you to access them or connect with them or something?

Beth Granger:
Well, first of all, when it comes to the algorithm, they don't share what it is. So this is all based on... Anything I say about the algorithm's based on my observations and it's a snapshot in time because the algorithm could change tomorrow. But it does seem like if you engage with other people's content, you will see more of their content in your feed and vice versa. So that's always a good thing, right? You can train your feed essentially by engaging with people's content.

ilise benun:
And that that gives you more opportunities to get more conversations going.

Beth Granger:
Yes, but there are ways to do it without commenting, although I think commenting is incredibly powerful and people don't realize that it is. So I advise some people to ignore the feed completely because it can take you down a rabbit hole and you're not being strategic, which is to pick three prospects, three clients, three referral partners, and maybe three people that inspire you or just you find interesting. And either bookmark or save the URL to their activity section so that you can manually go and make sure that you're seeing the content that they share.

ilise benun:
What about that bell you can ring and get notified? Is that a good way also?

Beth Granger:
Yes, and so it's even if you pick that you want to see all the posts, it doesn't show you 100% of the posts. It just shows you more, so I'm not 100... And you don't get to see, like I can't see a list anywhere of the people whose bells I've clicked. So that's a little frustrating. I might be seeing something and not want to or... So yes, but if you really want to see everything, visit directly.

ilise benun:
Awesome. And let's talk a little bit also about company pages versus personal profiles. I'm not going to ask a specific question yet. Why don't you just tell us what you think?

Beth Granger:
Okay.

ilise benun:
What are the differences and what do you think of them?

Beth Granger:
So if you have a business, you should have a company page, but you're going to spend more of your time as you, the individual, because people like to do business with people, even if it's only so that when someone's on your personal page, you don't have that empty gray box instead of your logo. It makes it look like it's a real business. I do find that the only people that follow a company page want to sell you something or want to work for you. If you're a large company, a huge, multinational company, there are different things, but for most people, especially if it's a small business, have the page, share stuff to it occasionally, but most of what you're going to be doing is you, the person.

ilise benun:
So I know some people post something on their profile or from their profile and then repost it on their company page. Is that a best practice? Should that be part of one's habit?

Beth Granger:
So I would say organically, natively, I don't know the right term for it, you can post the same thing to both places, but don't post as you and then share it because I think it's better to have it just be there, copy, paste, whatever, whatever you're doing. But yeah, I mean, it's good to have stuff there because what if somebody somehow comes across the company page first? You don't want it to be empty.

ilise benun:
Excellent. And in terms of you mentioned commenting is very powerful, so I want to talk a little bit about commenting versus posting because I know that often, people think, "I should be posting, I should be posting," and they think of commenting as those little things that take a lot of thought and time, actually maybe more or less time, I don't know, but I've been saying for a while now that commenting is the new content. So I'm curious how you feel about that and why is it so powerful?

Beth Granger:
Well, because it's a conversation, right? To me, yes, content is important that you post, but that's like yelling to the void. You don't know who's going to see it. Commenting is having a conversation. It's you're getting to know somebody, they're getting to know you, potentially other... You sometimes meet other people in the comments. It's just it really is an underused part of the platform. And unfortunately, we probably have all seen this, some people are using automatic AI-generated comments, and ugh, they're bad. Don't do it.

ilise benun:
Icky.

Beth Granger:
Yeah.

ilise benun:
And actually, that leads me to a question about meaningful comments because that's usually what I advise people to do, but then, "Oh my God, what is meaningful and how do you come up with meaningful?" And, "That just takes too long. I'd rather have the AI." Can you tell the AI to create, to write something meaningful?

Beth Granger:
No. So for most things on LinkedIn, if you're wondering whether to do it, how to do it, I always imagine that you are with that person or these people in person. And so their post is like something they might have said, "Oh, hey, I just did this thing and ba, ba, ba." What would you say in response? So you say the thing you would say in person essentially, so that will make it meaningful, and yeah.

ilise benun:
I like that. Yeah, like think about how you would actually speak to that person in real life.

Beth Granger:
Yeah. I mean, occasionally, occasionally just saying, "Hey, congratulations," that's fine. Not everything has to be a work of art, but if you're doing it strategically to support somebody or to get to know somebody, what would you say in person?

ilise benun:
Yeah, and I think that does take time sometimes to think about, but I think it's worth the time.

Beth Granger:
Agreed.

ilise benun:
Another question that comes to my mind has to do with metrics, what I think of as vanity metrics mostly. And I know because they're there, we can't not look at them, and yet I have so many clients who are so discouraged by how little or few likes they get or how little exposure they feel like they get. And often, I say, "You don't know," even though they're counting whatever we mean by impressions, and I will ask you what that means in a second, but the idea that you put it out there, you don't know who's seeing it and you are assuming not a lot of people are seeing it, but maybe the opposite is true. So how do you think about that?

Beth Granger:
So I love the lurkers. These are the people who will never comment, for whatever reason. A lot of time it's because they're uncertain. They don't know, if they comment or like, who's going to see that? Is their boss going to see it? Is their competition going to see it?
So I had an example. Before I started my business, I thought I was looking for a new job. Connected with somebody who I thought was a hiring manager for a job I saw. It turns out she wasn't. We had an amazing conversation and we stayed in touch all these years. Maybe met for lunch once a year. She never commented on anything that I posted so I had no way of knowing that she saw it.
A couple of years ago, she reached out. She had a new job, they were having their first all-hands-on-deck event since the pandemic, and said, "Can you come down to Philadelphia to speak? What's your speaking fee?" Now, could that happen all the time? I couldn't... The numbers can't tell you that. And also, like you described it as vanity metrics, a thousand people could see your post, but if they're not your... One person could see it and if they're your ideal prospect or referral partner...
So I try not to worry too much about the numbers and think more about what content will get me to stop and engage? What interests me? Now, of course I'm not everybody, everybody's going to have different opinions, but yeah, I try not to worry too much about the numbers. Is it exciting when something happens and people keep commenting and you see the numbers grow? Of course. That's human nature, but...

ilise benun:
Yeah, when something goes viral on LinkedIn.

Beth Granger:
Right, right.

ilise benun:
Right. A lot of people often ask me if they should get verified because LinkedIn is constantly pushing getting verified. What do you think about that?

Beth Granger:
So I am verified, and if you're comfortable with it, I advise you to do it because it proves you are who you say you are. And while there are no far... There are tons of fake profiles on other platforms, there are fake profiles on LinkedIn, and it just proves that the person is who they say they are. And I figure, here in the United States, they use CLEAR, the airport CLEAR, and yes, you have to upload some kind of ID, but they don't keep it. They just match it somehow to some database somewhere, and then... So I'm comfortable doing it and I think it's if you are, go for it.

ilise benun:
Well, I'm not, so I haven't.

Beth Granger:
There you go, yeah.

ilise benun:
One more question, and then we're going to open it up, about posting. Maybe you have some best practices about posting. I know we have specifically a question about image versus text maybe versus video versus slideshow. What's the thing about posting?

Beth Granger:
So I like to say post in the format that will get you to post. In other words, if you are not going to do video because you're going to have to do 16 versions and how do I get the captions on there? And then so don't do video. If you're somebody who is comfortable doing different types of content, that's great because different subsets of your network like different things. I like doing video but I don't really watch videos. I prefer to read, so that's just me.
So I think experimenting with even similar content but done in different ways, you'll see who in your network likes different things. So shake it up, do all the kinds they offer you. They do seem to be right now, March 2025, pushing vertical video because they have that new tab and stuff. So if you haven't done video before, now might be a great time to start experimenting with it.

ilise benun:
And what about images versus text-only, would you say?

Beth Granger:
Well, people are definitely attracted to pictures, especially faces, people, or interesting things. Do both. Try it and see. I mean, I do both. Sometimes I have something to say and I don't feel like putting an image with it. Sometimes I have an image and less, maybe a little bit less text. It's all very... It's fun actually, I think, trying different things. I haven't done a poll in a while, I will say. I don't do very many of those.

ilise benun:
Okay, yeah. And actually, one more question that keeps coming to my mind, which is do you have a favorite kind of post for generating engagement? What are any tricks about how to get people engaged?

Beth Granger:
Yeah. So it's interesting. Years ago, I did a post. So a woman in Australia, a long story, created this thing called LinkedIn Local and it spread around the world where people were holding events in order to meet the people behind the profiles. So I decided, I live on Long Island, I decided, "Oh, I'm going to do a Long Island LinkedIn Local." So I put a post out basically describing what it was and saying, "I'm going to do this event. Do you prefer morning or evening time?" just some questions, and something happened and this post took off.
Now, did LinkedIn help it, a person help it, or because it got engagement, did the algorithm just make it grow? I don't know. So certainly, things that may be about something where people have different opinions, where they can say, "Well, I think this, I think that," I wouldn't say... I kind of don't believe in tricks. I just think about, again, reversing it. What content would you engage with? What would interest you? Try that.

ilise benun:
Beautiful. All right, so let's open it up, and if you have questions, you can raise your hand and you can say them or you can put them in the chat and I will feed them to Beth.
"If my LinkedIn network is an odd mix of people who are and aren't my ideal clients, is that okay, or is that a problem? And is there anything I should do about it?"

Beth Granger:
I think it's fine, first of all, because we all have our life history and the people we collect in our world. And also, you never know. I feel like it's like ad-blindness. If there's something in the feed about a topic that I have no interest in, I just don't even, I sort of don't see it, so it passes me by. So if you shared something, but I would see your name, so I don't think that's a problem at all. You don't know, people change careers, people have people in their world. So it might not be interesting for them, but they might know somebody.
So I think it's interesting to have diverse and broad networks in different places. If what you're trying to do is get more clients in a certain space, then maybe you comment more on posts with people talking about those issues. Yeah, so I wouldn't worry about that quite honestly.

ilise benun:
I think there's a corollary issue that people or question that people ask me about, which is, what if my network is made up mostly of my colleagues and people just like me as opposed to my clients and prospects in my market? Is there anything different you would suggest in that case?

Beth Granger:
Well, connect with... As you have new clients or go to networking events or get connected in other ways with people that are more like your client or your referral partner, be sure to connect with them because then your network will grow.

ilise benun:
So you're basically saying strategically expand your network with the kinds of people you want to be in your network?

Beth Granger:
Yes, absolutely.

ilise benun:
No tricks?

Beth Granger:
No, no. Just what you do off the platform as well, right? So you might go to some event or a trade show or group or for that industry, some nonprofit event or...

ilise benun:
All right, let's see if others have questions. "How important is it to have a company page and what should I post on my company page? Also, LinkedIn has given me 250 monthly invites to invite people to follow my company page. Should I? Is that worth my time?"

Beth Granger:
Yeah, so a company page, just in case somebody doesn't have one, looks very much like, to a visitor of the page, it looks very much like a personal profile. There's a space for the logo instead of your face and a background graphic and a place to describe the business and then there's content. So you can put up posts, you can put up different information. The 250 invites a month, that allows you to invite people in your network to follow your business page. You probably receive them in where the invites come in all the time.
What's funny is if you follow a page, it doesn't seem like you're any more likely to see the content from that page, at least that's my experience. So you could use them, but I don't know if it, honestly, if it matters. Depending on what you're attempting to do with your business, if you're looking to grow a business and add teams and staff and grow a giant business, then maybe it does make sense, or if you're considering having a LinkedIn Live or a newsletter from the company page, then you certainly would want followers first because otherwise 30 people will see it or 3% of 30 people.

ilise benun:
"I've been reaching out to connect with people I saw at a conference recently. Some of them I met last year and that's when I invited them to connect originally on LinkedIn, but those invitations, some of them are still sitting there unaccepted. Should I withdraw or retract it and send another?"

Beth Granger:
I would probably retract it and then you have to wait a certain period of time to resend it, but I would probably do that. I'm not sure why I think that though, quite honestly. It just seems like if I was going to do that, that's what I would do. But also, if they didn't accept, they just may not be very active on the platform.

ilise benun:
That's true.

Beth Granger:
They might not have even seen it.

ilise benun:
It's not because they don't like you.

Beth Granger:
Exactly.

ilise benun:
It's so easy to take these things personally though, right?

Beth Granger:
People do things for their own reasons.

ilise benun:
Indeed. "How do you drive people from LinkedIn to your own website and/or to sign up for your email newsletter?"

Beth Granger:
I love that question. So for me personally, yes, I do have an email newsletter. I also have a LinkedIn newsletter. I send email more frequently than I do my... So you can guide people from one to the other, for instance. So I could put... Some people will have their LinkedIn newsletter be excerpts from their email newsletter and say, "Hey, I share stuff much more frequently on email. If you're interested, here's how you sign up."
I also have conversations with people through messaging and I'm curious about them, they're curious about me, and it just, at some point, feels natural to say, "Hey, how about we jump on a Zoom?" or whatever it might be. I also hold webinar events. So this could have been, it's not, but this could have been an event that I put out there in the world and my network can join it, and by registering for the event, they're in my email world.

ilise benun:
And actually, I didn't... Here's a question I've been wondering about but never thought about, but Beth is the perfect person to ask this to. Have you noticed that when you send out an email, a LinkedIn newsletter now, it doesn't immediately go out and some people in my circle, including myself, are not receiving in their email inbox that LinkedIn newsletter until as much as a week later? Have you noticed this? They seem to be batching them and sending them out and when I get them it's all like 901, 901, 901, 901.

Beth Granger:
Yes, yeah. Well, what's interesting is I haven't personally sent out a newsletter in quite a while, so I haven't noticed that from the person sending it, but I have noticed that I do get them in batches, but I didn't know that about the week thing, so that's kind of interesting.

ilise benun:
And annoying.

Beth Granger:
It is. I'm curious now. I don't know. I wonder if that's a bug, a feature. I'm not sure. I may have to look into that.

ilise benun:
All right. All right. Well, when you do, let us know.

Beth Granger:
Hmm. I like a good mystery.

ilise benun:
You're a detective, Beth.

Beth Granger:
I am. I'll say one more thing, actually.

ilise benun:
Okay, go ahead.

Beth Granger:
The questions you receive when you're speaking to people, clients, prospects, are great content because if one person has that question, so do other people.

ilise benun:
Exactly.

Beth Granger:
So when I rewatch this, who knows? There may be posts about all these things.

ilise benun:
That's right. Turn it into content, for sure. My last question is what kind of chocolate do you like?

Beth Granger:
Oh, I am a bit of a chocolate snob, so.

ilise benun:
Oh, good to know! So then to-

Beth Granger:
I like, brand-wise, Dove and Lindt and the heavy, the very creamy ones, but I like all chocolate. I admit it is my vice.

ilise benun:
Awesome. All right. Well, watch your mailbox for chocolate.

Beth Granger:
Ooh, thank you.

ilise benun:
All right. And no, thank you, Beth, so much. This has been super helpful. I've learned a lot and I know everyone else here has and we've just loved having you as part of our conversation.
I do hope you found that helpful and we'll let it inspire you to take action, just one tiny action on LinkedIn. That's your baby step. Go over to LinkedIn and just do something. A thoughtful comment on someone else's post, that's plenty. Just jump into a conversation because that's where the magic is. And if you want my help finding actual clients using AI, check out my new one-on-one AI Client-Finding Coaching Calls, or you can just sign up for my quick tips at marketing-mentor.com. Once you're on the site, you'll find lots more resources, including my Simplest Marketing Plan. So enjoy, and I'll see you next time.