Do you want to be in a stronger financial position at the end of this year? Whatever that means to you, you can.

That’s why I’m thrilled to have Farnoosh Torabi with me to kick off the new year. She’s a best selling author and host of the acclaimed So Money podcast and we talked about everything from what you need to know to begin investing (it’s not nearly as much as you think) and the way more and more people are moving away from the either/or way of working (you’re either employed or self employed) to more of a hybrid approach that provides both stability and freedom. It’s kind of ideal.

This is a good one – so listen (here and below) and scroll down for the transcript. 

And if you want to hear the episode when I was the guest on Farnoosh's podcast, you can listen here.

Transcript......

Ilise benun:

Hi there, this is ilise benun, your Marketing Mentor. And this is the podcast for you if, and only if, you are ready to leave the feast or famine syndrome behind, and I mean for good.

Do you want to be in a stronger financial position at the end of this year? Whatever that means to you, you can. That's why I'm thrilled to have Farnoosh Torabi with me to kick off the new year. She's a best-selling author and host of the acclaimed So Money Podcast. And we talked about everything from what you need to know to begin investing, and it's not nearly as much as you think. And the way more and more people are moving away from the “either-or” way of working—you're either employed or self-employed—to more of a hybrid approach that provides both stability and freedom. It’s kind of ideal. This is a really good one. So, listen and learn. 

Hello, Farnoosh, welcome to the podcast.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Hi ilise. Thank you for having me.

Ilise benun:

Of course. And please introduce yourself.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I am Farnoosh Torabi. I am editor-at-large of CNET Money; host of the So Money Podcast; and for, wow, I think 20 years now, I've been working helping people manage their money, build wealth. Started out as a journalist; still a journalist, but along the way have had the opportunity to work in many capacities on television, writing books, speaking, all of it. I love all of it. Helping people build wealth. It's great to be here.

Ilise benun:

Yeah. We're kicking off the new year with this episode and I thought it was appropriate because we do want to focus on money. My two topics are marketing and money with self-employed people. And more and more, I'm adding to the arsenal of information and resources that have to do with money because it's just a huge problem for so many people. So, that's what we're going to try to bring to bear to start the new year.

One of the things I was thinking about is that I was listening to actually your podcast from December 17th and your reflections on 2021. And one of them was, a paycheck isn't always worth it. I love that because so many people who listen to me are far away from a paycheck or, more and more, are kind of going back and forth. And I heard you talking about the fact that you had been a solopreneur and now you're going in-house, or you just went back in-house. So, I just thought we would start off with, what is your thought about what seems to be this new hybrid of going back and forth from being self-employed to not so self-employed? And how does that affect, or how could it affect, our money?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, it's interesting. I did not seek this transition specifically. I didn't wake up one morning and go, "I really wish I worked at a company and I got paid twice a month and had a 401(k) again." It wasn't that I missed that so much, but... and this is advice for everybody: 

I think when you're considering the way that you want to work, thinking about what is important to you right now—and that's different than maybe what was important to you five years ago, six months ago—it’s important to check in with yourself and understand, okay, if you are enjoying your career, and hopefully you are, how you work matters. Whether that's individually, as I had been for many years, but more recently, I was starting to really desire working with a team again and collaborating and growing.

It wasn't just for the sake of working with the team that I missed, but the result of that, which is that you can make a bigger impact. You have more resources at your disposal. You have more heads being put together to think of unique and interesting ways to educate people about money, which in every year gets I think a little bit more challenging. The world gets more crowded and busier, and it's harder to, I think, cut through that and give people the information that they need in a way that feels relatable.

So, I had been doing that on my own for a long time. And for me, I was really thinking about, "How do I want to work? What is the impact that I want to create in the next year, two, three years." And impact that I wanted to make was I wanted to make more of an impact. I wanted to help more people. I had built this podcast from the ground up, and we are now on our seventh anniversary, and thinking about next steps. I'm in my 40s, so life stage matters. Like, okay, so what's all of this supposed to add up to? How do we put a bow on this in some ways? I've been working in this career for 20 years; how do I want the next decade to be defined? These are really existential bigger questions, but I feel like it's very important to stop and reflect on this.

It's very easy to get caught up in the day to day, the housekeeping of running a business, but it is only your responsibility. No one's going to bring these ideas to you. You have to think about how you want to grow, how you want to work, and the changes that you want to make that are personal. And it's important to take time to take that inventory.

Ilise benun:

To me, what seems to be changing, and is more and more happening now, is it used to be I'm either an employee or I'm self-employed. It's either-or. And now, there just seems to be this flow back and forth, and the flexibility of... there's no stigma like, "Oh, I couldn't make it work. So, I'm going back in-house." It's not that. What you're describing, it seems more about, "What do I need right now for myself?" And all of the options are on the table.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yes. It's a very exciting time, I think, to be stitching together, putting together, your career trajectory. I think the pandemic was a real reckoning in many ways, but in particular, as we reflected on our careers, a lot of us were just like fed up and we really realized how much power we actually have, especially in large numbers. We saw in 2021 an unprecedented number of people leaving the workforce which, now going into this new year, I think it has really flipped the power dynamic. 

I do think that as a worker, you have a lot more agency and autonomy. I think it's exciting. I think that to your point, it's not like this polarized binary, you either work for yourself or you work for somebody else. I'm doing both. I'm straddling both worlds. I know that my situation can feel unique. I work in media. So, there is maybe some more flexibility as opposed to other kinds of professions, but I would not rule it out for anybody. Thinking about how to get the best of both worlds.

If you really want a consistent paycheck—and it may not be the bulk of your income, but somewhere where you can work those 20 to 40 hours, earn insurance, get a consistent paycheck—so that you can then feel more supported financially to pursue the creative individual business that you want to pursue, I think that's brilliant. I think that there's a lot to be commended for that. Because what you're doing there is you're being very purposeful and strategic and you are doing “you.” There's no script, I think, anymore in terms of how you should or shouldn't design your career.

Ilise benun:

Yeah, I think that's true. One of the things I like also about having that hybrid version, no matter how you do it, is that you can be much more selective about who you take on, or what projects you take on as a self-employed person, if you have something stable. And for me, who is, I'm someone who's totally unemployable, it's just too late for me to go back in-house anywhere. But I have always actually partnered with very large companies on a project basis, and that has been my stability. And so there is that version of it, as well, that I think can really work, but you got to go look for it. It's not usually going to land in your lap, unless you have a podcast like that.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, no. Ask for what you want. I think that's the motto for 2022. Don't be shy. Even back in 2010, so going back in time, this was the previous recession, I was approached to go work in-house for a company. And I didn't want to do that at the time. It was going to require me to not do a lot of the side projects that I had. I had just started my business, and I felt it was too early to be switching gears. And so I said to the company, "Look, I'd love to work with you. Could we work out a situation?" I was talking to the CEO. So this was somebody that would have the final decision. So go to the top, if you're asking for things like this.

We ultimately came up with a relationship where I got a 401(k) and benefits and a paycheck, but I was not exclusive to them in terms of not being able to do other things. We had to create carve outs. I couldn't work with companies that competed with them directly, but I could continue to do some of my other freelance assignments. And that was what I wanted. I asked for it and we were able to strike that balance.

Ilise benun:

That's awesome. What we're talking about is an ideal situation, which takes some doing and experimenting and trying out. And so for those listeners who are self-employed creative professionals, you know that we tend to suffer from the feast or famine syndrome, especially if the marketing machine is not in place. And sometimes even, no matter how successful, have an unpredictable cashflow because that is the nature of being self-employed. So, for people who are in that situation, but want to do better with their money, what advice or suggestions do you have?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, it really just comes down to prioritizing your savings. I know with the new year, a lot of us have these ... we make these resolutions and financial resolutions actually compete with health resolutions. Sometimes it's even more popular. Saving, getting out of debt, is more popular than quitting smoking or getting in your 10,000 steps. 

But I would say that sometimes you have to slow down to speed up, and you need to take the first six-to-nine months of this year to shore up your savings—which means perhaps paring down your budget, delaying some of your expenses for the business, whether that's marketing and hiring—but really so that you can create that savings cushion so that by the summertime, you can go full-speed ahead with all your initiatives with the security of knowing you have the savings. If things don't work out, you don't have to scramble. You don't have to make knee-jerk reactions.

Because here's the thing, as we all know, when there is a lack of resources, our decisions get driven by adrenaline. They tend to be irrational, sometimes, decisions. We feel forced into certain decisions because we don't have the financial security, essentially, to take on some risks, to maybe see through projects, give things time to breathe, because we're constantly worried about making ends meet. I get that some of that can happen from time to time as a self-employed creative, but giving yourself that financial runway is long term critical to your success.

And of course, sometimes we're going to tap into that savings and that's what it's there for. But to always be mindful and keeping it top of mind, is like, this is a priority. This is as important to my business, my savings, as hiring the right people, investing in marketing, getting my website looking great. This is so important and we often think of it as an afterthought. 

I see this everywhere. I don't just see it within the entrepreneur world. I see it across America, regardless of what you do for a living, is that when we budget, we don't think of savings as a need. We think of it as this thing that we'll try to do at the end of the month, after all the other expenses have been covered. I would encourage us to really think more of savings as a necessity, just like paying your mortgage or your rent.

Ilise benun:

I'm channeling my listeners here. And I know you've heard this too, but what if people feel like they just can't afford to save? Is that usually true? Is it a mindset? What suggestions do you have when that comes up?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, yes. I mean, not to underplay anybody's feeling of feeling strapped, financially strapped. I mean, the reality is that wages and incomes have remained pretty stagnant relative to things like the cost of living, and inflation is on the rise in 2022, and we have to be concerned about these things. I don't not believe somebody when they say, "It's very, very hard for me to save." 

What I would say to that person is two things. One, you can only can control what you can control. And two, to be able to save or to feel like you have more capacity to save, one of two things has to happen or both.

One is that you reduce your expenses. And sometimes that takes big trade-offs. Maybe it means moving. Maybe it means going without certain things, even though everything feels like a need. Really taking a long hard look at how you're spending and being extremely selective. If you want to save a couple hundred bucks a month, how is that going to come out of your budget? And if that isn't really practical, then it's perhaps about increasing your income. 

Ilise benun:

And being self-employed, we are in a position to actually increase our income. That's one of the benefits. 

Farnoosh Torabi:

Exactly. Can you raise your rates? Can you take on an extra project, even if it's just temporary so that you can shore up some much needed savings? Personally, I've always much preferred the latter, which is making more money. I don't enjoy cutting back, call me human. I'm much more jazzed about finding other ways to make money. And it usually works out, whether it was in my 20s when I was finding extra freelance writing gigs, or I babysat, to just last year, 2020 when or... I keep getting my years mixed up now.

Ilise benun:

I know.

Farnoosh Torabi:

2020 and 2021 just feels like one big long year.

Ilise benun:

Yes.

Farnoosh Torabi:

But 2020, at the start of the pandemic, when a lot of my client work was evaporating, like overnight, I would get calls, “Can't follow through.” I had a contract that was going to probably support us for the year. It was signed. It had gone through legal and then they just pulled out at the last minute. 

I was terrified because we had to find a place to live. We were in between homes, and I just sat down and thought, "Okay, well, how can I bring in money on my own without the need to rely on a client? How can I be my own client?" And that idea, fortunately, never had to get executed because things started to come back, but it's there now and I have it well thought out. And if I ever wanted to do it, I know exactly how to go about it.

So sometimes it's good to think of these worst-case scenarios. I mean, in that moment, I was actually in a rock-hard place and I had to come up with this creative way to make more money. But it's sometimes helpful to think about the “what ifs” and what you might do in that moment. 

What if Facebook goes away? What if there's a cyberattack? I don't wish these things, I'm not trying to put these out in the universe, but I'm just saying sometimes it's important, as a self-employed population, to think about what are the things that we're really dependent on? What if they, temporarily even, go away? Like a lot of us had to reckon with that in the pandemic. If we were a brick and mortar business, if we didn't have a digital presence, what happens then? Just to be aware of how to get the wheels in motion in those events. You don't have to actually follow through with that plan or that worst-case scenario, but just having that awareness, I think, it can help you expedite in times like that.

Ilise benun:

Well, one of my favorite books during the pandemic has been a book called The Stoic Challenge by William B. Irvine. And he talked a lot about one of these stoic philosophies or strategies called “negative visualization,” where you do imagine the worst-case scenario so that you're ready in case it happens. And it doesn't have to be morbid, or depressing, or even make you feel negative. In fact, it's very positive, what you're describing. You know now what you would do in that situation.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I'm writing a whole book on this. It's funny. I've been hanging out with fear a lot in the last several months. I'm writing a book about the upside of fear. And it's really more memoir driven, my own personal life experiences, but I'm going to look into this book you just mentioned because it echoes what I've been saying—is that, we talk a lot about our dreams. Let's talk about our nightmares. Because think about it, if you have a nightmare, what happens? What actually happens to you? You wake up.

Ilise benun:

Exactly.

Farnoosh Torabi:

You wake up. I mean, what better exercise, to go to that dark place, get scared, and then I do think there's a metaphor there, that we wake up to what's important in our lives. I always say when you come face to face with your fears, it's almost like a shortcut to realizing what is important to you. What do you care about? Because you have to then realize like, "Why am I scared? What am I afraid of?" And so, what's the opposite of that? How do I help myself not feel that way? 

It's an incredible exercise in identifying who you are, what's important to you, your values and how to get there. And it's counter, I think, to a lot of what our culture says. Go down Instagram. It's like run away from your fears, block your fears, fear nothing but fear itself. It's like, yeah, but I feel like there's a way to work with our fears. Since we're all feeling it, is there a way to leverage this? I think we can.

Ilise benun:

Absolutely. Just going back to what you were talking about earlier, I think it is when people are at that edge, that they act. And sometimes we get very complacent. I see this with marketing a lot. People know they should be marketing, but some clients are coming. It's not exactly who they would want, but it's good enough. And then, as did happen when the pandemic started, a lot of people's clients disappeared and then they had to do something. And so, yes, I mean, there are lots of different ways to have that wake-up call, but maybe we don't have to wait for the rubber to hit the road, as it were.

Farnoosh Torabi:

No, you don't have to and ... I remember going to this event where I was just a fly on the wall. I was invited by the host and it was a gathering of women, self-employed creatives. Some of them had jewelry businesses, others were into the healing business, but the thread that brought all these women together was that they all made seven figures or more. And one of the group exercises, the breakouts, was imagine that social media gets pulled. Facebook gets sanctioned by the government and you can't go on Facebook anymore—which is a startling reality if you are an online marketing business. Facebook is where most of the marketing dollars go for many small businesses. And it was just fascinating. It was a great exercise. To be honest, I wouldn't mind, whatever happened. I know it's like one of those things where ... what do you do? But I think it's important to think about, again, going back to my point.

We kind of operate, sometimes, on cruise control and that's great, but that's not a forever solution. That is not sustainable. So how can you get ahead of some of the twists and turns that life will inevitably throw at you?

Ilise benun:

Absolutely. And be ready for them. I think there are three more things I want to do before we wrap up here. One is I want to ask you a question about investing and I want to talk a little bit about your So Money Calendar. And then I have a final question for you. So, let's talk first about investing, briefly, because a lot of people in my circle, especially women, know nothing about investing. I want to give some baby steps, some first steps, to begin learning about investing. What would you suggest?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, this might surprise you, but you don't have to know a lot. You really don't. I think this is the biggest mindset “eff” that women in particular are up against, which is that with... I think we see this in various areas of our lives. We feel like we have to be perfect before we pursue. Whether it's applying for a job, we feel like we have to hit all the job requirements. Men don't do this. They apply for a job even if they've only got 50% of the job-qualifying aspects. With investing, I think we overcomplicate it to the point where we don't invest. And every minute that you're not investing is not just time wasted, it's money wasted, it's wealth unrealized.

And so, what I would say to women is, first thing is, if you are self-employed and you have a business, everyone open up … anyone can do this … just go to any virtual brokerage, online platform, trading platform that you trust. I use Charles Schwab, but there's so, so many. There's Ellevest, which is catering to mainly a female population, but there's Wealthfront, Betterment, Fidelity and Vanguard. 

So, just open up what's called a SEP-IRA or a traditional IRA, or a Roth IRA. But for entrepreneurs, for the self-employed, there is a special type of investment account that's designed for retirement. And it's like a traditional IRA, which is a... really basically like it's just a bucket that you can invest in, put money in automatically. Your money gets invested in a diversified portfolio of mutual funds.

They figure it out for you. You don't even have to tell them. All you have to tell them is what are your goals, what's your risk personality. They'll do a risk personality test. Like, if you're really cautious versus more risk prone. Then they'll ask about when you need this money, because that's important. If you need this money sooner, rather than later, they don't want to take a lot of risk with it, and vice versa. So, the data, the algorithms, all that.

We are living in a great time in history where investing has never been easier. The access points are there. They're free to access in many cases. In other words, of course you have to pay annually a fee, but you don't have to pay any money upfront other than just what you want to invest. And a SEP-IRA allows you to invest up to, I believe in 2022, over $60,000, if you want. And that is tax deductible. That's a lot. So, you'd only get that savings for retirement, but then you get the savings today as a tax benefit. So, you don't have to obviously do the whole 60 grand, that's a lot, but if you wanted to, and then as little as you want.

So, just get started. Don't let the lack of knowing all the things be what keeps you from opening up the account. Set up an automatic deposit from your checking account to this brokerage. And it can be, again, as little as a hundred bucks a month, but just get started. I find that whether you're talking about saving or investing or paying off debt, it is most important that you just start and you get on a repetitive cycle where you're doing this every week, every month. It's a really important habit. Once you see the buildup, once you see the accumulation, I think that is a very visually motivating thing. So I encourage you to download the app wherever you're investing, check with your investments. Don't worry if the market's having a bad day. That's what happens. You're not in this to trade.

I'll give you one more piece of advice, especially for your female audience. Multiple studies have now shown that women are better investors than men. We invest less. That's partly to do with the pay gap, but also because we are, again I think, more hesitant to invest. We don't feel like we have all the answers, so we don't. But when we do invest, we have better returns and that's been because we tend to buy and hold. We don't go in there making moves. We set it and forget it. And that's as far as an investment strategy goes, the wiser strategy. Men tend to approach investing, and I'm generalizing here, but with more of a game attitude. Like I'm going to go in there and try to beat the market. And as a result, they might make more moves throughout the years, they'll buy and sell, as opposed to buying and holding, and that does not work in their favor.

So let that be a mode of confidence to you that as a gender, we tend to do better. We underestimate our skills and our ability to do this. So don't let your lack of knowledge or your lack of confidence be the reason you don't do it. Maybe the only excuse you have is if the Internet's not working and you can't log into the bank account, but other than that, everyone can do this and should do this.

Ilise benun:

Excellent. Actually, I was talking to someone last night who was telling me about the trading that she was doing and how she got a violation because she didn't wait long enough while the thing settled or something. And I was like, "I've never heard of that." And I realized I've never heard of it because I don't sell anything. I just buy.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yeah. This is for another show maybe, but the only time I've ever made a move is in 2020, I reallocated my portfolio. I was very heavily invested in the stock market and I wanted to tweak it a little bit because I hadn't done that since I had opened the account 15 years ago. I had bigger appetite for risk at 25. And now as I'm in my 40s, I'm the breadwinner, I run a business, I'm not really into risk, at least not when it comes to my investments. I mean, I get it's important to invest in the stock market, but I dialed my risk back a little bit and invested a little bit less in the stock market. We'll see if that was actually the smarter move, but it felt to me, I felt good about it. I was able to sleep better at night. And I think that's important to make sure that you're doing what has been proven to be the right way, but also you have to also feel good about it, which is why I think a lot of these calculators take into account your risk tolerance and how you would feel if the market fell 15% in a day, which can happen.

Ilise benun:

Let's just talk briefly about your calendar. You have the So Money Page-a-Day Calendar. I have always wanted to have a calendar. I swore I would never write another book, recently, but I would do a calendar because I just love them. I've always loved them. So I've got yours in my hand. It's called the So Money Calendar. A year of managing your money, your life, and your dreams. Just tell us a little bit about it.

Farnoosh Torabi:

The calendar is a way for me to make the podcast a tangible thing. I've been running this podcast, I think I mentioned earlier, it's going on year seven in 2022. I've been doing the podcast and it's been quite the heavy lift. We are now three days a week. And by now, you can imagine, there's been a number of wonderful pieces of advice and insights shared on the show. This calendar's a way to bundle that and give people a way to stay on track with their finances and just their life goals, really, in 2022. 

One thing I've learned in all the years doing the show is that when we talk about money, we're really talking about our lives. And it's fun. It's something to gift. It's something to hold in your hand or leave on your desktop or wherever you're working these days, in bed. And just keep the show, but also your financial goals, top of mind. And it was really fun to put it together, going down memory lane.

And there's another one coming out in 2023. So, this might be a new thing for me. I don't know. I didn't seek this. They came to me. God bless them. It's been really fun and I hope you enjoy it.

Ilise benun:

Thank you. Do you have a favorite day?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Oh gosh. Well, I make the joke that this calendar not only gives you advice, but will also tell you when it's Thursday. Which, you asked for my favorite day. Yeah, I have the cover in my hand. I don't have the actual calendar in my hand though, but the cover has some advice. So, Thursday, May 26th, there's a good piece of advice here. It says, “Be financially curious. Ask questions, even the dumb ones.” And it is true. 

I interviewed Annabelle Gurwitch on my podcast, who you may know. She's a comedian and author and she, in her 50s, experienced some major financial shifts even though she had done “all the right things.” I'm using air quotes—(she) saved, she was the breadwinner. As an actress, she had a lot of different gigs and was able to support a family, which says a lot, I think, as a female in Hollywood. Nevertheless, in her 50s she got divorced. She got sick and had a lot of bills and had to almost start over.

And the curiosity advice, I think of her, because when I asked her at the end of the show, I said, "Annabelle, how do you..." And she does this all with sort of this grace and she's humorous. And she has this real levity to how she looks at life, even though she's gone through some really hard stuff and continues to. She said, "I just, I'm always curious. It's humbling to be where I am and I think that that's something that I hope never changes about me. I want to keep learning. It's the only way to keep growing. It's the only way to sometimes laugh at yourself." Yeah, so staying curious. It's financial advice, but it's really life advice and I'm going to remember that as I go into the new year and for all the years.

Ilise benun:

It really lines up nicely, actually, with some of the marketing advice I give, because I talk about curiosity as a marketing tool, and that questions are the answer to everything, and that you don't have to worry about, "How am I going to answer those questions? I don't I don't know the answers," before they even ask them. And, so I love everything about curiosity.

All right. Last question. I did hear on your recent episode, you talked a little bit about “feta recipes.” Why?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, I'm Middle Eastern. My parents are Iranian. And so feta has always been like the staple in our cuisine. And I feel like feta in the pandemic got a lot of street cred. I don't know. I follow a lot of food blogs and on Instagram. Actually, I think there was a scarcity in feta in 2021.

Ilise benun:

Really? 

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, I think we have to blame TikTok because TikTok was featuring this feta pasta recipe. It's just like four ingredients and it comes out like this beautiful luscious, feta pasta, tomato recipe, which... In the pandemic, we all became chefs. We all became cuisine experts. And feta became this food staple in the pandemic that was scarce at some points. And so it was just an inside joke because it's nothing new to me, but I find that I'm finding my people, people who love feta. It's like find me. Let's cook something now. Let's share recipes.

Ilise benun:

I love feta. All right, you piqued my curiosity there with that comment. All right. Farnoosh, thank you so much. It's been an awesome conversation and tell the people where they can find you and all your material, your ideas, online.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Well, you can listen to the podcast. It's three days a week. It's called So Money with Farnoosh Torabi. I actually answer listener questions on Friday. So if there's something you want to get my thoughts on, you can submit a question through the website, which is somoneypodcast.com, or you can hang out with me on Instagram. That's my preferred social media. I'm not on TikTok. I really don't hang out on Facebook, but I like Instagram. It works for me. You can direct message me there your questions. And also at CNET, cnet.com/somoney, because now we're partners. You can get a lot more there, not just the podcast, but articles and videos and I have a newsletter. So, lots to checkout.

Ilise benun:

And your new YouTube channel. That's what I was watching yesterday.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yes. Yes. That's at youtube.com/cnetmoney. We're airing a new video every Wednesday and we're always taking requests. So, you can leave your questions in the comments section on YouTube.

Ilise benun:

Excellent. And I shared the “buy versus rent” video with one of my young friends who's trying to make that decision right now.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Hmm. The question that will never go away.

Ilise benun:

All right. So good to talk with you. Perhaps we'll have an opportunity to talk again later this year.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I hope so. I hope so.

Ilise benun:

Thank you so much. And we will talk to you soon.

Did you learn a little something? I hope so because that's how this works. One baby step at a time. Before you know it, you'll have better clients with bigger budgets. Speaking of better clients, they're probably not going to fall in your lap. If you want to build a thriving business on your own terms, you need my Simplest Marketing Plan. The new 4.0 version is packed with all new content, including six new case studies and six new lessons. You also get three different planners, plus access to the free monthly office hours group coaching session, where you'll meet other creative pros who are practicing what I preach and taking control over their business and their life. Find it all in the Marketing Mentor shop at Marketing-Mentor.com. I'll be back soon with more conversations with creative professionals who are doing what it takes to ditch the feast or famine syndrome. Until then, see you next time.